I'm not happy to read that Keith got called out for "questioning Obama's polices" and "suggesting that McCain loved his country" from someone who, apparently, "would have moved to Canada if McCain won."
Keith, I didn't know that you hung out with Sean Pean. Huh.
Ardent Obama supporters need to learn quickly that if there is to be "hope" and "change" it's going to have to come from their actions just as much as it does from the president elect. And that starts with being open to listen to others who may not think a like. The "for me or against me" mentality stinks just as much coming from left leaning persons as it does from those who are bent to the right.
Alec Baldwin—I know, I know, bear with me here—had a very good point on this matter:
Obama is likely to turn out to be a better President than Bush (with Shrub's approval ratings of late who couldn't, but it's a tad too early to say that with absolute certainty) but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to call into question his administration's policies. Especially the important ones.
Join the fray by reading through and commenting at the end.
I could be wrong, but I suspect President-Elect Obama himself would be quick to knock down any notion that his policies are beyond question.
Agreed. It's important to question policy, especially when we have a president that is willing to listen. This is our chance to have our opinions heard. Don't knock those that are questioning Obama, praise them for getting involved in the political process. To those questioning, make sure you have reasons that you disagree. Don't just bash.
That being said, we probably all need to take a step back and wait before we pass judgment. It's only been 5 days and it's another 70-odd before he's the actual president.
Amen to that Greg. And for anyone who is still militant one way or that other, you need to chill out and watch the latest South Park.
Thanks for this Greg. I've been really upset about all the cheerleading, blind faith and empty threats I've seen the last week. From both sides, but most especially from a few of my friends who support Obama.
Saying you'd move to Canada, for example, if he didn't win, is pretty damn ridiculous. Our country has had its problems, and frankly those problems are going to need the American people, not Obama, to solve.
I think he'll do fine, even though I don't agree with all of his policies, but everyone from Obama on down needs to realize that there are a whole bunch of people who see things differently. I find myself in the middle most often and I know there are smart, decent and good people on either side. These people need to begin to work with each other.
I'll give you a prime example. A year or so ago the conservative news site Red State approached Blue Flavor for a redesign. At first we were very wary, being a company made up mostly of liberal thinkers. Then we asked them if they cared about that and they said, "No, we just want great designers and smart people, politics have no baring on our choice of who we work with, we're all Americans and we believe in people's right to choose." Or something along those lines. We decided that it would be pretty damn lame of us to NOT work with them. So we did and they were pretty damn great to work for. They're all far to the right in their views and they facilitate some pretty wacky stuff some times, but they also believe in the power of technology to enable open discussion. I'm really glad to have the experience, and I imagine most of the team will say the same.
Were we somehow misguided in helping them out? I sure as hell don't think so, but at the same time I'm often scared to mention it to some of my more liberal friends. Why? The same attitude I talked about in my tweets.
I find it so sad that people, on either "side" can be so close minded. It scares me. I'm with Mr. Baldwin on this, we need to question Obama, to challenge him. I'd take it a step further, we need to question and challenge each other and ourselves as well.
Word.
There are many problems with the world, but the biggest is communication. This is just one more area where too many treat leadership as a team-sport and can only cheer for one side - and never understand the consequences of not engaging all others. Sad and dangerous. Something we must get beyond.
I agree with Kev Hamm, to much like blood-sport. I'm an independent with friends/family on both sides. Over the course of everything, I've noticed more acrimony from the Republican side and it continues.
The reality is no party in my lifetime has won a third term and it was extremely unlikely McCain would when so many others have tried. So, to me, it wasn't really a race between Obama and McCain as a race between Obama and Clinton. One of those two was going to get it. I ask my republican friends which of those two they prefer as that's their only choice. Live with it :-)
Couldn't agree more. I sit mostly in the middle as well and was saddened to see a number of friends and even some close family blindly jumping on the Obama wagon.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other for whom others vote for, but I wish people would fully vet any candidate and question their policies when selecting someone to such an important office as POTUS. If you agree with them afterwards, fine. But just following them blindly w/o doing your homework is disappointing at best.
Unfortunately, it seems that most of my liberal friends, who preach open mindedness and tolerance, only practice that with people who believe the same as they do. Ironic.
Yup, I'd like to echo the call for Obama's supporters to take a lead from Obama himself who would likely encourage Keith's questioning:
"In the Illinois state senate as well as in the US Senate, this has been his habit as a legislator, to solicit counter-arguments against his own position, to deploy his unusual talent as a close and sympathetic listener, to probe, to doubt, to adapt, to change."
For the record, I'm an independent who is glad Obama beat McCain – at least the McCain that was campaigning these past few months.
As one whose husband [jokingly] called her a traitor for suggesting McCain might not be vote-worthy, thanks, Greg, and Keith (from the other side). :)
"but it's a tad too early to say that with absolute certainty" ... I don't believe so. I don't think so.
I'll go ahead and say it with absolute certainty, Obama is going to kick some ass and get things done. He's a pragmatist. I picked Obama to win back in January of 2008, and I commented a number of times here on that subject. Not to beat a dead horse, but Obama is damn good at organizing things, logistics, setting priorities, delegating, and that's what governing is all about.
The neocon movement in America is dead. As I've said before, right wing policies don't work very well, and you're seeing the hard proof now in the current state of the US. You'll all prosper under Obama, don't sweat it. What a lot of GOP folks don't realize is that America grew away from them in the past 15 years. America is becoming a lot like Canada, in that the vote is in the centre, and the centre is actually all about responsible socialism. Believe it or not that includes a good dose of conservatism. You can have both, and it works really well, and people can still get rich, gasp!
> I could be wrong, but I suspect President-Elect Obama himself would be quick to knock down any notion that his policies are beyond question.
You're right. Perhaps he needs to remind his base. I understand he kept the email database from his campaign...
> I find it so sad that people, on either "side" can be so close minded. It scares me.
It should. That's the kind of thinking that enables individuals to take and retain the power to do terrible things. Zealots suck, throw rocks at them.
And, I think you tell those people that you designed the Red State site. That you are free to do so and are mature enough not to be threatened by other people's ideas. Then, step back and kick them in the ding-ding.
> But just following them blindly w/o doing your homework is disappointing at best.
Politicians should never become religious symbols.
> America is becoming a lot like Canada, in that the vote is in the centre, and the centre is actually all about responsible socialism.
This sentence, among others, suggests that you don't know as much about your southern neighbor as you probably think you do. America is not becoming a lot like Canada. Obama has a long, painful, road ahead and that's just to keep the country afloat. To enact all those Change ideas will take a type of blood, sweat, and tears that haven't been seen in this country in a long, long while.
As for Neocons, they are far from dead. Paul's buddies are still active participants in many branches of our government and will always be there. One day their numbers and rank will grow in strength and they'll have control of this country again.
"Unfortunately, it seems that most of my liberal friends, who preach open mindedness and tolerance, only practice that with people who believe the same as they do. Ironic."
I get the same thing from many of my conservative friends. Which, in the end, suggests that being close-minded while preaching open-mindedness is not something that uniquely afflicts either liberals or conservatives, but humans in general.
I think we should view the people who have hurt Keith's feelings in a the right context. McCain, for instance, said that he loved his country and would always put his country before politics - in the same moment that his campaign was calling the man with a good chance of being the nation's next leader a terrorist. These statements could be a response.
In other news: a coach at Pearl Junior High School told students that if they speak [sic] Obama’s name, they would face expulsion.
And more to the point: Obama supporter Ze Frank has launched From 52 to 48 with Love. LOVE IT.
> This sentence, among others, suggests that you don't know as much about your southern neighbor as you probably think you do. America is not becoming a lot like Canada.
Let me explain it a bit more. Look at your country's demographics and where the values of voters have been shifting. This has been coming for two decades, it's not a surprise, it's not something that just started happening. Obama simply leveraged it, which is why it was clear he was going to win easily.
And there's no way it's going to shift back anytime soon, the shift, by nature, must span a generation. The US is moving toward responsible regulations and limitations on the markets, universal health care, a smarter energy policy, and so on. To the centre. You're not moving towards these things because Obama started a change movement two years ago, you've been moving towards this for twenty years, maybe more if you subscribe to the theory of republics in the US.
Certainly the neocons will fight, but politics is a simple game, if you ain't where the votes are, you ain't going to win. The votes have moved to the centre. Canada has been like this for a long, long time. Our conservative party (currently in power) would be considered more on the left than your Dems. Basically all our parties stay in the centre, since that's the only way to get elected.
Or maybe I'll be proven wrong four years from now. Time will tell, but the weight of evidence in this case makes me pretty darn sure I'm right on this.
I have no idea what happened to Keith as a cursory search of his Twitter page only seems to reveal some sort of aftermath, so I guess I'm not really sure what actually happened. Twitter fight? Blog fight? Physical fight? Whatever it is, it sounds shitty.
I will say this though: half the reason some people are so quick to jump on the Obama bandwagon with both feet is that the other wagon we've been shackled to for the last several years is barreling down the hill, on fire, with all wheels coming loose. When that's where you're coming from, you should be forgiven for thinking -- yes, even *insisting* -- that a new wagon, that is not on fire, that has all its wheels is a better vehicle.
That in mind, yes, of course let's hold all presidents to the highest of standards and scrutiny we can. Doesn't matter who.
> kick them in the ding-ding.
One of my all time favorite phrases. Nice work.
Thanks for saying what needs to be said more often! Obama is not a celebrity by any means. As an independent, I get sick of seeing bandwagon politics on either side of the spectrum. If everyone chooses to blindly stand behind Obama for the next 4 years, we won't know whether he makes good on his promises or not. We won't know if it was good to be true or just smoke and mirrors. People ought to value those who question Obama, they are the ones who are still awake.
Your academic background has absolutely no relevance to good leadership, Billigflüge. Nice try. :)
The US is moving toward responsible regulations and limitations on the markets, universal health care, a smarter energy policy, and so on. To the centre.
All 3 branches of government are now controlled by the Democratic Party. Obama has one of the most liberal voting histories in our standing government (I'm not saying that as a bad or good thing, just stating a documented truth). If this is the center, where is the left in your opinion?
> Obama has one of the most liberal voting histories in our standing government (I'm not saying that as a bad or good thing, just stating a documented truth). If this is the center, where is the left in your opinion?
Heh, this is one of the great accomplishments of the GOP, you actually believe the US Dems and 'liberals' are on the left. They're not. I see you're also parroting the right wing talking point about Obama's liberal voting history, it's a 'documented truth'.
You folks don't even have a national, universal healthcare program, and you think the Dems are on the left? Give me a break. You've moved (or are moving) to the centre, but that's it. I would define the left as a shift towards strong social policies and a very hands on government. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean big government, and it's also not a bad thing. Forget what the GOP has been feeding you for the past 30 years or more. How much more proof do you need that right wing policies aren't that good? Or perhaps you believe the other right wing talking point that all the current woes in the US can be traced back to the Clinton administration?
Keep in mind that left/centre/right is somewhat contextual, and I look at your country as it relates to the world. It's not much of surprise that you think Obama is a lefty and a liberal, and that the Dems are on the left. But reality would tend to disagree with you.
Greg Paulhus,
I believe that while most of what you say regarding the country being "center" (from a Canadian viewpoint) is possible.
I don't think the following statement will be true.
"You'll all prosper under Obama, don't sweat it."
In fact, Greg Storey is spot on in this:
"Obama has a long, painful, road ahead and that's just to keep the country afloat. To enact all those Change ideas will take a type of blood, sweat, and tears that haven't been seen in this country in a long, long while."
Our country is going to take some lickings, alot of people are going to experience quite possibly the most difficult period of their lives, and the 'blood, sweat and tears' required to lift this country out of the crapper says one thing, as Greg Storey puts it "if there is to be "hope" and "change" it's going to have to come from their actions just as much as it does from the president elect.
We have to work together to build up a better community, a better country, a better nation. We can't do that if we continue to play into the childish "us vs them" and "they broke it, not us!" and "la la la la i'm not listening" tantrums that so easily divide us.
> We have to work together to build up a better community, a better country, a better nation. We can't do that if we continue to play into the childish "us vs them"
Exactly right, and the US is finally on this path, to the centre, towards pragmatism. The grip of the GOP's Misinformation Machine has been broken, in large part because of the emergence of the social web.
When I say you'll all prosper under Obama, I'm speaking long term, I'm thinking eight years out and more. There's a great saying about politicians, how they can't think past the end of their nose. As big as my own nose is, I try hard to think well past it.
When I say don't sweat it, I'm talking about not worrying about Obama being a socialist, taxing you like crazy, and other quite stupid notions the GOP put out about Big Bad Obama.
Storey is also right when he says that Obama can't accomplish anything without the citizens getting off their asses. I've mentioned this before, the point that the US needs to foster a culture of social and shared responsibility, you have to care what happens to other people in your country, and not only care, you have to do something about it, such as paying taxes to fund strong social programs like national universal healthcare.
And this is happening in the US, as much as I dislike the mainstream media and pundits, they might have something when they talk about 'Generation O'. There's a whole bunch of 30 and 40 something year olds in the US that aren't afraid of the concept of responsible socialism, and when you talk about working together to build up a better community, that's what you're talking about, socialism. It's a good thing.