Earlier this morning I posted a link to Tony Wright's patchy ad hominem. I wasn't going to write anything in response and just let it go but some have written in to say that their comments aren't being posted. How lame.
In his post, Ugly Design Works... Most Web Designers Miss the Point, Tony goes on and on about my inability to recognize that design is nothing more than pretty art and that web designers in general are in denial about the more important role of the usability expert.
Nevermind that good designers are both but I guess I'm in denial about that too.
Personally I think this more to do with the article I wrote for A List Apart. It was his web deign company that I mentioned in the narrative. I could be wrong but considering the tone of Tony's post and that my name is in there seven times I don't think so. Pity.
Given that comments are being moderated as they are on the Gojobby blog I'll post my reply here to make sure it's seen:
Judging by your own web app (which you designed?) I don't see any evidence that you practice what you're preaching. Gojobby has small text, is not easy to scan, and is compacted in such a tight area I don't really know where to start. I doubt very seriously that Jacob Nielsen would give your application a passing grade according to his criteria that you hold in such high regard.
I also think it's funny that you submitted your own blog post to Digg. Just how bad are you in need of attention?
Have a good weekend everybody.
UPDATE: Within minutes of posting this Tony has seen fit to turn comments on. Go hither.
Join the fray by reading through and commenting at the end.
Hey Greg-
Comments weren't being posted because I have moderation set up and was on a plane down to Seattle as the story found it's way onto the front page of Digg. Every post that wasn't obviously spam has been posted. Thanks for keeping an eye out. It was flight 188 (anchorage to seattle) and I'm at the Sheraton in Seattle if you'd like to call and say hi. If you're curious, I'm down here talking to a potential investor.
And if you read the article, I mention that I'm as guilty as the next guy. The first step is admitting that you have a problem. I also openly admit that the interface is certainly "out-there" and quite experimental. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Jakob Neilsen would probably openly weep if he ever looked at it. I'd also throw out that it was very hastily built (and admittedly a tad sloppy). We're currently working on a CSS/XHTML rebuild. Busy busy!
And how bad am I in need of attention? I've got a day job, but we're definately trying to make Jobby fly. It's been successful beyond our wildest dreams for the first month. But, if ya ask any startup if they'd like some Digg traffic, I think they'd probably say yes. I'm not particularly ashamed of that. I also find the discussion interesting.
Sincere apologies for upsetting you. I tried very hard to say that I thought you were a terrific designer (you're certainly better than I am) and very specifically NOT to attack any of your work from a usability angle. I just was arguing against a few points you made. Gosh, man-- it's just a discussion.
Regardless, I'll continue to real your blog as I have for the last year or two (unless you block my IP address, I guess. ;-) )
Cheers,
-Tony
http://www.gojobby.com
I have to say, after readin his little diatribe. He puts out about as clear a point as a 10 year old speaking about molecular biology!
I think it would have been easier if he just would have commented on your article with, "Sticks and stones may brake my bones, but names will never hurt me!"
...if ya ask any startup if they'd like some Digg traffic, I think they'd probably say yes. I'm not particularly ashamed of that.
Exactly how does a link to a personal blog rant about how I and other designers need to get over ourselves equate to promotion for a web-based resume storage application?
We designers just have to accept there will always be a gap between designers and everybody else in how we view subjects of this matter. This is why we tend to get undermined by non-designers and wannabe designers such as Scoble and Wright who clearly do not understand that design is about effectively communicating to the user, rather than "making things look pretty." Aesthetics is just one element of design. There's so much more under the hood but that's what everybody sees so that's the idea people get.
Design is so subjective and is in the eye of the beholder, so its easy to get criticized by even a 12 year old, and the reason why pedestrians hire 12 year olds that know HTML to design their website.
Both Scoble and Wright are defending what they are, designers of ugliness.
"This is why we tend to get undermined by non-designers and wannabe designers such as Scoble and Wright who clearly do not understand that design is about effectively communicating to the user, rather than "making things look pretty.""
Have you read the article? You and Tony seem to agree.
"Both Scoble and Wright are defending what they are, designers of ugliness."
I would tend to disagree here. It's a rare designer who can mix great usability with pleasing design. Tony is one of the few I have worked with that can do this exceptionally well.
Hey Mr. Storey! Long time, no see.... are you still in touch with Fred Pierce? I remeber when you worked down in the dungeon of building K. What're you up to now?? Ha. Can't believe I ran across this. You still do webwork? Thats cool. I do too. It's awesome!
It's a rare designer who can mix great usability with pleasing design. Tony is one of the few I have worked with that can do this exceptionally well.
Is this the work you consider rare in the quality of design and usability?
wow. this is some mudslinging. do you guys have myspace accounts?
What Tony said about comments just doesn't ring true. I posted a comment and saw it live on the site - it was actively removed later. Moderation my unusable pretty ass.
Wowser, man. You sure are an angry guy. You're saying some pretty mean-spirited things. I truly didn't mean to attack you-- I went out of my way to compliment you as a designer (in fact, I believe I said you are most certainly a better designer than I am). I also went out of my way to note that I am quite guilty of this, too. I didn't say one negative thing about your work-- I just brought up a few point that you made and offered a differing viewpoint. In short, your blog entry made me think, and I wrote about it. A stoning offense, to be sure!
I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate by linking to a consulting company that I used to own over a year ago... But whatever your goal is, I don't think it's particularly friendly. If your goal is to hurt my feelings, you might consider insulting my mother. If your goal is to appear to be a better designer, you win-- you are a better designer (as I said in the original article). I just disagree with a few things you said.
I love this blog. Nobody digs in like you Greg!
Tony, what's really cool are the prior posts about how Pat Robertson picks on other people.
Boy does Greg get mad about that.
But you won't find that here. No sir - just some playful banter about some minor design/web issues.
But it's all in good fun.
Lighten up.
So, I guess my point is that all of you web designers who (like Greg) feel that good design is effective communication need to put your money where your mouth is… And make your sites a little bit more usable and, yes, a little bit uglier. After a lot of reflection, I know I’m going to with Jobby.
So, what you are saying here Tony is that because we designers take an alternative stance to accessibility/usability, we are doing it all wrong? Accessibility and usability are, like you said, key aspects to all designs on the web, but how and why?
Is it more usable to disrupt design and content flow with both underlines and a change in color, or is it better to just use a color change? Sure most people were accustomed to seeing those underlines, but that is simply because the design aspect of many websites was severely lacking. The Internet is changing with new technologies and design techniques. Deal with it.
Designers are artists in their own right, and artists are free to make art however they please. When the techniques for styling links and other elements became widespread with CSS, sure some people lost their ways, but I happen to see designers like Mr. Storey and others simply wasting the competition with their creativity and usable, accessible design tactics.
You might call us trendwhores, noobs or idiots. You might tell us to try insulting your mother over you because you seem to be impervious to our calls for design and content over simply content. Well, all I have to say is shut the hell up and make way for the new generation of website design.
We had bad design, and now when we have the opportunity to improve websites through accessible and usable design methods, you bash them in their artistic attempts to improve the web.
Design compliments and improves content. If it inhibits content, something was done wrong. If design is used right, it boosts readability, accessibility, usability, functionality, and so much more.
This is funny ... I read your disclaimer where you state, "don't be an asshat." And yet, there are strong undertones in these comments, leave alone blatant accusations. Anyhow, I like reading your blog and visit from time to time. I don't understand why you guys are battling out matters of perception. I mean, what looks pretty to me may look ugly to you. And yet, both the websites in contention may be serving their clients very well. So what's all the fuss about? I can't complain much though, it's hard to find a web designer who's got your sense of humor. And for the record, I think that design and usability go hand-in-hand and that one should complement the other, not vice versa. But again, who cares what I think ;-)?
This does remind me a bit of the religious decussions my fellow coders have about which language to use, or whether or not to indent code or use braces on the same line.
Can't we all just get along? ;)
Seriously, though. As much as I find this interesting, it doesn't matter much to me as a coder, since I'll write the code to power whatever you throw at me in the way of UI prototypes. I rely heavily on you guys to at least have a clue about how this stuff works. But I guess with all such "aesthetic" things (whether it's code indenting or design philosophy), some things are always subjective. I suspect there are elements of this that are like the "science" of Feng Shui (which, is of course not a science at all). The bottom line is, do what works, if you can figure out what the hell it is that works.
Jobby is the only web service I have tried and hated so much that I asked to be removed from the service (because there is no way to do it on your own). I don't see how any designer on that project has a leg to stand on when it comes to discussing design.
Jared, we're glad you tried it out. We'd love any feedback you might have, since we're trying to make it better (which was part of the motivation for Tony's article). What in particular did you not like about the design? Please contact us at our feedback page, as I'd like to not clutter the comments in this blog with discussion of the pros and cons of Jobby.
Please contact us at our feedback page, as I'd like to not clutter the comments in this blog with discussion of the pros and cons of Jobby.
Why not? You had no problem discussing the pros and cons of my design ability on your website. Jared, feel free to 'clutter' these comments.
I was just being polite. :)
Seriously, heh, I have nothing much to contribute to this discussion. I know little or nothing about design. I just enjoy a rowdy debate, and I'm amused as to how similar this debate is to the debates that people have over, say PHP vs. Java.
Feel free to comment on Jobby. If you have some good ideas, we'll certainly integrate them, and even credit them in our (suddenly infamous, lol) blog.
Cheers!
i think the ideas and oppinions are already cluttered enough.
also, why aren't the corners on these comment boxes rounded?
In short, gojobby is a train wreck. I really don't mean to be rude, but the look and feel of the site is just terrible. Way too crammed.
I find it pretty ironic that this post is hosted on this site.
Have you looked at your own site's complete lack of an organized look? Maybe out in the fields of Kansas, where I have a feeling you are from, putting a gigantic image of 'one of dem dar balloony tings' in the middle of the screen is a good idea, but you should probably make it so all your navigation items (you know, those links that allow users to *gasp*...navigate around your site) are not something that you have to scroll to and are floating out in limbo. How you have managed to screw up a blog site is beyond even me.
But congrats, I have shown a few of my employees your work so they know what to avoid.
I imagine this comment will get deleted quickly. Obviously it is ok for you to get personal and rude to people, but I doubt you take it nearly as well as you dish it out ,sir.
I'd say that the navigation to Greg's site is in a pretty standard place...what do you want it to do? Follow you around like some sort of social blanket that you can cling to when you get lost or sad.
Zing! Hey Eric, time to upgrade from that 386 with IE 2.0.
Eric should work for Gojobby.
But keep your resume fresh, Eric because Gojobby will be sued out of business by GoDaddy in no time.
Wow, Greg, what's up with all this hate? I expected better of you.
Wow greg, he has an opinion..so what. Amazingly, for once, that opinion goes against yours..so what.
I think this is just very childish for both of you to be going on and barking at eachother.
Kinda reminds me of http://www.robertnyman.com/2006/04/27/false-gods/
Hate? What hate? It's as Peter says: "just some playful banter about some minor design/web issues." Slightly bent out of shape, perhaps. Hate, no.
I belive that programmers and designers or in particular website dev have no voice in saying which is right and which is wrong, whether 'no design site' or 'designed based site' is better.
In the end its all up to the end user, there is no point in arguing. We are just trying our best to suit the audience.
Well that's my humble opinion anyway.
Brian - My feedback for Jobby is that Tony needs to seriously reconsider his belief that "design and usability do not go hand in hand." As soon as he realizes how wrong he is, the improvements to Jobby will follow.
People who say "No design" simply don't understand what design is. Unfortunately, people who don't understand design are vast majority, particularly in America, where arts education and visual literacy is pitiful. Separate this argument from the medium (a website or web app) and it immediately starts to make no sense. Is an undesigned car better than a designed one? An undesigned building? An undesigned videogame controller?
People who think of design as *just* the icing on the cake, the presentation layer, the style, are working with a poor understanding of what design really is. Design that gets in the way of usability isn't getting in the way because it's design — it's getting in the way because it's *bad* design (and there's definitely a lot of that out there).
Good design not only aids usability, but also brings something that pure functionality rarely does: joy. Great design makes people fall in love with things — great architecture, great products, great user experiences. Maybe some people never experience the joy and love and pure pleasure that experience a great space or great interface or great product can bring. For them, I'll admit, the value of design is lost. They have no design taste buds. They'll never see the value or experience the joy. Thankfully, these people are not the vast majority.
PS: Bring the hate, I love it when you get all red and angry.
Form, Funtion and Fit (thanks to Norman) is the most simplistic way I have found to describe design concerns to my clients. Most designers and developers tend to have a foot in two of these... but one foot is always heavier.
Eric... what's wrong with Kansas – ever been there?
I agree with Dave.
Greg, there's no doubt you are a better designer than this Jobby guy, BOTH usability and aesthetics-wise. Sure, he more or less attacked you and, quite frankly, has no idea what he's talking about, but I expected you te be above this kind of mudslinging.
That said, I did enjoy your original rant. ;)
Isn't this getting a little bit ridiculous?
I'm actually happy that Greg's tackling this issue head-on, considering the advice that Tony is giving is completely boneheaded and could really give people the wrong impression.
Everyone that feels Greg's getting a little heated obviously doesn't value the design profession or giving young designers the best information possible. Yup, I said it.
This thing between Greg and Tony should be settled with a round of no-holds-barred thumb wrestling. Add some baby-oil into the mix to make it more exciting and sexy!!!
I think it's time we forget about all this usability stuff and bring back the transparent blinking animated flourecent gifs and long 30 minute pointless flash intros. Woohoo!
Brian said, "Seriously, heh, I have nothing much to contribute to this discussion. I know little or nothing about design."
The ironic thing here is that great engineers are designers at heart. Well structured code is as clean and flexible as a well structured, grid layout. All the work, attention to detail, optimizations and logical prowess needed to create amazing code is the basicaly the exact same set of skills designers need at creating equally impressive work.
How do I know? Because I've worked with some of the best engineers on the planet. I know at the heart of the matter, they do exactly what I do. They speak in algorithms and arrays whereas I speak in type, color and layout. They understand how bits and bytes can translate into digital imagery, or provide the foundations for a scalable database that handles millions of transactions or simply allow me to type a message for the world to see in a blog like this.
Great code is like great design; both are poetic in their natural forms. But whether that poetry is in Italian or Japanese, it's still poetry.
Ignorance on a subject is fine as long as you accept that when you profess your ignorance to the world at large via a web site, you take the rightful hand slapping you deserve for proclaiming to be a king of fools.
"Everyone that feels Greg's getting a little heated obviously doesn't value the design profession or giving young designers the best information possible. Yup, I said it."
Kind of odd, then, if you care so much about young designers that you would be such jerks about design rather than educating and giving your opinions in a constructive way. It's possibly the arrogance of "designers" that turn people off.
The guy at jobby posted some ideas about design. He's been kind and gracious in the commnents on this post. You've treated him horribly. Perhaps you should rethink your strategy of caring about young designers.
But underlined links are more usable!
Greg,
Tony does have a point. The average person could care less about design. The example that everyone has been using is myspace, but what about google and all the sites they do? Sure, they don't have the glossy table header image backgrounds, but they are RELEVANT and ACCESSIBLE. In the end, people aren't going to give a flip about your design, they're going to care if the content is good. I hope you can understand this.
There is an exeption to this though - advertising campaigns and companies that have an identity that they can't sacrafice (such as a&f). People are going to care then, because the design reflects the company.
You designers need to get off your high horses though, you're nothing without us developers. Sure, any designer can take stuff into photoshop and make a cool looking site, but at the end of the day the developers are the ones that make everything breathe. Designers take too much credit for what they do; the developers are responsible for great websites.
Greg, you are a great web designer, but you don't hold a candle to the designers from places like NorthKingdom, Group94, Odopod, Hi-Res and Firstborn. I don't understand why you're being a jerk to these young designers; it's the young guys that are the innovators in this business, I hope you can understand that.
Anyways, Greg and Tony, keep it up. You guys are good and I wish the best of luck to the both of you in your careers.
Sam
The average person could care less about design.
Huh. You should call the executive team at Target, I think they're going to want to hear this from you, directly. And when you're in the board room be sure to let them know that the millions of dollars in new revenue from the 'designer lines' never happened (result of an accounting error) and that it's time to flood the shelves with generic products because the average person could care less about design.
You designers need to get off your high horses though, you're nothing without us developers.
When I read crap like this I thank the Lord for India which is chock full of developers who don't have insecurity issues.
Greg, you are a great web designer, but you don't hold a candle to the designers from places like NorthKingdom, Group94, Odopod, Hi-Res and Firstborn.
Am I supposed to? I don't design for Flash so I fail to see how the work can be compared. That's like telling J Mays that he doesn't hold a candle to Sagmeister.
I don't understand why you're being a jerk to these young designers...
Who exactly are the young designers you are referring too? Really now, there is no need to make things up. I provide enough target practice as it is.
...it's the young guys that are the innovators in this business, I hope you can understand that.
Really? So us 'old guys' aren't contributing anything eh? Yesterday's news! Well let me leave you to your innovation then, I'll be off. Jim, Jeffrey, it's time you both checked into the nursing home, I'll meet you for some oatmeal.
Exactly what does age have to do with innovation? Here, let me answer that for you: none.