A long time Airbag reader and friend of mine has decided to cut his chain to the corporate desk and push out on his own to live the American dream. For those of you not familiar with this term, I'm looking at you Pierre, it means my friend has decided to start a business.
And to kick this all off he's decided to give away an Apple iPod Shuffle.
Well, ok, kinda.
Michael Doan is in the accounting business. Now that Enron has been reduced to a gas station, Martha is showing people how to decorate shivs and Schwarzenegger has *cough* fixed the budget, Mike needs a little help attracting new clients. And to get a great start he needs a good logo. Normally this is where I launch Photoshop and do the work to the best of my ability, but I'm in the middle of a great many large tasks that do not leave me adequate time. So I've decided to host a little competition, dragging a few friends and mentors into the process.
All you have to do is design a new logo for Mike's business and you will be showered with prizes (iPod Shuffle, etc.), fame and glory. Before we get into the loot (did I mention iPod Shuffle and more?) lets talk about the task at hand.
About Mike's Company
LedgerPaper is the business name, but it will be followed by a "business unit" name (e.g. LedgerPaper - Financial Accounting Services). In the future, if all goes well, other business units will come into play (e.g. LedgerPaper - Financial Staffing, etc).
The company provides the following types of services: SEC Filings, Accounting Staffing/Screening, Audit Prep Work, Forecasting, Financial Modeling, Custom Excel Development, and Bookkeeping. Mike's (LedgerPaper) clients need to see that he has experience in accounting from working inside a Fortune 500 company to feisty startup experience. He has taken a company to the New York Stock Exchange and has served as a corporate officer.
Ledger paper is real, it surrounds us...
Mike was kind enough to describe what ledger paper is in a way only a loving accountant can:
Dead sexy, eh?
Judges
The following persons have been selected to chose the winning entry — there can be only one.
Grand Prize
Forget what your father told you Focker, there's no place for second. The winning participant will receive the following.
2. Jewelboxes — Kings 20 Pack. Great for distributing your portfolio.
3. A coveted Airbag t-shirt of your choosing
4. And of course you'll be praised here on Airbag with a 'hyper-link' to your website, or email address (if you're a risk taker).
Contest Notes
Rules of the road.
2. The color palette should be conservative (traditionally this means deep reds, blues, and other fine accounting hues) with a hint of flair (I'm thinking orange) to indicate the companies youth and agility. Think John Stewart versus Dan Rather.
3. The logo will be used on both print and the web and the client has agreed to use the winning entry.
4. "No 1990's, dot-com swooshy things". Just leave anything resembling dot-com in the logo graveyard.
5. The ability for the logo to scale down into a nice favicon is a definite plus.
6. Submit your entry via email attachment to: airbag@gmail.com. Please do not submit files larger than 250k. Do not send anything created by a Microsoft product such as Paint or Publisher (seriously yucky).
7. All entries have to be emailed no later than midnight of February 14, 2005. You may submit up to three logos but to be considered for this contest you have submit to at least one.
8. This contest is not-valid in the following states: AR, WY and the District of Columbia. *wink*
Results will be posted seven-to-ten days after entry deadline. Winner will be notified via email.
If you have any questions for the client about his business please post them in the comments. Read through the comments before posting a question.
Good luck.
Join the fray by reading through and commenting at the end.
Do you mind international entries? (I don't see why you would but the state thing threw me)
In regards to printing costs, is there any preference to the number of colors?
Is the company name "LedgerPaper" or "Ledger Paper?" It is referred to both ways in your write up.
And what's wrong with DC (although, technically I am licensed to create in a number of states and municipalities)?
In regards to printing costs, is there any preference to the number of colors?
No preference.
Is the company name "LedgerPaper" or "Ledger Paper?"
The name is LedgerPaper, all mashed up, wiki-style.
Are multiple entries allowed?
So, you're basically looking for a cheap logo? $100 bucks or so? What a nice way to devalue the talent and skill of the design profession. These kinds of 'competitions' always rub me the wrong way. What it basically comes down to is that your client gets a whole bunch of spec work, and possibly a finished logo, for nearly no money whatsover. You'll forgive me for not participating.
The client, and hard working designers everywhere, would be much better served in the end to go to a design professional and pay market rate for services rendered.
@andy: Yes, as you can read above, you can post up to three entries. But at least one ;-)
What a nice way to devalue the talent and skill of the design profession
The contest is suppose to be fun. There is not intent to devalue anyone's talent or tarnish the design profession.
In fact, my last employer wanted to pay $500 for an entire website. I convinced the owners that they would get more value and professionalism from a real designer. The company ended paying significantly more for the website (in the tens of thousands).
Do you mind international entries?
Not at all, fee free to enter. There might be an issue with shipping the iPod Shuffle to another country in accordance with US law but we're checking into it.
And what's wrong with DC
Just a little sarcasm boys. This is Airbag after all.
So, you're basically looking for a cheap logo?
That wasn't my intent but I've already come across this point-of-view a few times now. The idea for holding a competition was mine. I thought it would be a way to have fun and try something different around here.
You'll forgive me for not participating.
No apologies necessary.
Alan,
These kinds of contests are great for "unknowns" to try and get there name out there and possibly get some freelance work or whatnot thrown their way. I don't see it as a way to devalue the talent or skill of anyone, but actually give some new talent a chance. It doesn't always have to be about the money, as The Client said, this is supposed to be for fun.
This is actually one of the most accessible contests I've read about because the requirements aren't overbearing or burdensome. And, if I'm reading correctly, the grand prize gets all that crap, not just the iPod: kick butt!
This is a great little project for someone with free time and a love for design...
What is the preffered file type?
PhotoShop/Illustrator file, or png, jpg, tiff, what?
What about foreign entries?
What is the preffered file type?
Good question. I think .jpg, .gif, .png, .tiff are good.
What about foreign entries?
Bruno, see my comment above.
The contest is suppose to be fun. There is not intent to devalue anyone's talent or tarnish the design profession.
I would be more convinced that it is "just for fun" if the contest wasn't to create a logo for an actual business. A logo for a fictional business would allow for the same fun, and not create the conflict that I am suggesting.
I'm not saying there are any bad intentions here. I'm trying to point out that these type of contests add to the devaluation of the design profession. I'd hope that anyone getting started in the business would understand that if you begin by giving your skills away in this manner, you are only adding to the perception that one does not need to pay market rates for your professional talents, and this will hurt your long term career in your chosen profession.
I'm quite sure that Mike Doan wouldn't want to participate in a contest to do my bookkeeping.
I hope I've made my point, I'll leave it at that and not comment further on the subject. Thanks.
Lest this turn into a different kind of discussion, I currently have a full-time design job but I also freelance. I enjoy logo design even more. Though I do have lots of clients who seem to devalue my profession by paying us on their terms. Would an esteemed plumber leave a house without getting paid for his services? The lawn-mowing guy? Absolutely not! But designers seem to be devoid of needing to make a living like the clients who need the designs but can't pay right away "because they are a startup" but seem to have the startup funds for every other aspect of their new venture. Without logos and advertising and marketing, the American Dream would be nothing but a bunch of business owners standing on sidewalks hawking their wares. I realize this is for fun, but after choosing a logo that will probably make LedgerPaper successful, he will continue to make money because of the logo rather than in spite of it. The logo brings him business, therefore an income. Despite this rant, I have no problems with this contest. I may even submit because I enjoy designing logos, and hey, I hear these iPod thingys are popular. So, good luck with your new venture! I don't have the cajones to go that route. But if I did, I'd appreciate the research and dedication and hard work that goes into a great logo design. And I'd feel obligated to set aside a part of my startup budget to get a great logo.
I'm in total agreement with Alan and Mark.L.
This type of competition only helps to devalue the designers proffesional expertise. Its hard enough to continually justify design/conceptual based costs to clients, as is - and the rewards of a $99 iPod and various elements of appareal only got further to compound these issues.
Wow. How tough it must be to design with a stick in your rump. That must entail a great deal of standing.
I fail to see how entering a contest compares with doing a job or "devalues" the work. My brother is a professional photographer and enters contests all the time without this fear; I am a professional writer and I do the same without this paranoia.
I can understand not wanting to participate, but come on guys. And I thought it was only writers who took themselves too seriously.
It's an interesting discussion that I have truly mixed feelings about. Just to throw gas on the fire (I'm good like that), from the American Institute of Graphic Arts (AIGA) Design Business and Ethics Series:
"A designer shall not undertake any work for a client without adequate compensation, except with respect to work for charitable or nonprofit organizations. A designer shall not undertake any speculative projects, either alone or in competition with other designers, for which compensation will only be received if a design is accepted or used. This applies not only to entire projects but also to preliminary schematic proposals. A designer shall work only for a fee, royalty, salary or other agreed-upon form of compensation."
I appreciate this kind of contest. I work in marketing and miss doing logo design, but I don't have the energy for the ongoing maintenance of real freelance projects. This type of thing is absolutely awesome cause if I have time, great, if I don't oh well. If I do get a chance to do it and am lucky/skillfull/whatever enough to win I get many benefits - winning a competition, exercising my brain, getting my name/work 'out there'. Thanks much for this fun opportunity!
Well, I think it's a good idea.
Oh goodie-goodie. A project. Just what a graduating graphic design student wants. Thanks for the opportunity, Greg.
I can't believe the ammount of negativity this contest is being received with. "Devaluation" of the graphic design career? Gimme a break.
If this contest isn't something you agree with, don't participate; it's as simple as that. As mentioned by Shawn, this contest is a great chance for those beginning to try-out the graphic design profession and should not be taken as insulting to more experienced designers.
I'm a college student studying design and money is often tight. There are a number of cool gadgets I'd love to have but can't afford and contests like this one are ideal opportunities to pick up some cool stuff for doing work I'd normally be doing for a letter grade.
Sure this contest may rub guys like Alan and Tom the wrong way, but comments like theirs do the same to me. How do you think even the top designers started out? Did they immediately begin charging a premium for their inexperienced work when they first started out? It's my understanding that they had to work their way up, much from the same position myself and other students are in now.
Not rubbing me the wrong way at all, as I'm a judge, but it's an interesting issue, and I thought the specific language from the AIGA was good material for informed debate.
When you are a college student or freelancer wanting experience to build your portfolio, this is perfect. When you are a veteran who has been paid into the thousands for a logo design (which then gets placed on signage, letterheads, billboards, napkins, coasters, etc.) and has a family (not just a gadget budget) then designers begin to think of their work value differently. Obviously this is extremely subjective, and each designer places a very different value on not only their work but the industry. If they think their logo is worth an iPod and that makes them happy, awesome. This discussion has gone on since before Saul Bass and Raymond Loewy. One student's contest is another designer's paycheck. It's how you view the reward.
Just because AIGA says something doesn't mean its the last word. There is more at stake here than just $100. Don't be shortsighted. I accept work based on many factors like inclusion in my portfolio, doing some good for a less profitable cause, and creative freedom. And you know what? I sleep well at night and don't feel like I am devaluing anything.
Mark, well put. While I agree with the AIGA language in spirit, I think it's a lot easier to agree with it as a 40-year old designer running a successful small firm. When I was 23, and a freelancer living check to check I entered a logo contest for a non-profit cultural organization where the first prize was the not-too-shabby sum of $1000. I won, and it really was a milestone in setting up my mental self-image of me as a designer. It gave me press, exposure, confidence, and new contacts and opportunities, and I can say unreservedly that it was a good thing. Would I enter a contest like that today? No, but is there a place for such things? Likely, yes. Don't expect the judges to be push-overs though. ;)
Beerzie said:
Wow. How tough it must be to design with a stick in your rump. That must entail a great deal of standing.
It bears repeating.
Wow. How tough it must be to design with a stick in your rump. That must entail a great deal of standing.
MY EMAIL keeps bouncing back
Permanent Failure: 550_:_Recipient_address_rejected:_User_unknown_in_relay_recipient_table
Many of us do a lot of design work alone and don't get a lot of feedback from anyone other than our clients (arguably the only feedback that is important, but still...). The way I see it is that this is an opportunity to do a fun project with a whole design community. The opportunity for growth and discussion is enough of a reward to make it worth the time (if you have the time that is).
Goodies are always a nice bonus though. ;D
Greg-
Will you be displaying all of the entires, or only the winner? I don't think I'm going to have time to do an entry, but I'd sure love to see everyone's work when the contest is over...
When Greg suggested a contest, I never imagine that it could generate negative feedback. I spent the last five years making business decisions for my employers -- decisions like Let's spend more than $500 on our corporate website. As comments and questions come up here, I will answer them with a the same business perspective. Hopefully, this will give you insight on how your next client thinks when you are negotiating your fee. View me as the Client Punching Bag and ask questions that you don't dare ask your clients like Why don't you value me? or Why do you make me rub my tummy, pat my head, and design at the same time?
As a consultant, I constantly have to bid for my next job. Potential clients always want to pay me less than what I want to charge. Do I feel like I'm devaluing myself or my profession? Absolutely not. Negotiation is part of business and life. That car that you dirve? I am sure you didn't pay full price for it.
He will continue to make money because of the logo
I don't follow the logic here. I will make money if I add value to my clients. Value is added to my brand when clients feel that they receive value from me. Look at any big company, how many of them have their original branding from their start up days? Not many come to mind. As a company figures out what its customers value, their brand evolves to meet their customers' values. No doubt that most of the designs resulting from this contest will be on the conservative side because of the business I am in. But, what if over time I find that most of my client base are designers in need of financial consultation. Will my brand evolve so that it becomes less conservative? Most likely.
The logo brings him business, therefore an income.
For an established company, a brand may bring in business because clients want to use a company they "know" instead of an unknown company. For me, an unknown company in my industry, I pound the pavement and spin my contacts for work. I am guessing that this is how most small design studio or one-man design shops get their business.
There is more at stake here than just $100. Don't be shortsighted
Jason is right. Any time of work you do you get two types of compensation: monetary and non-monetary. In my last job I took a $10,000 pay cut to get experience in SEC reporting. The lack of this experience was closing more doors than I could try to pry open. It is the SEC experience that is allowing me to start my own consulting business. Did I devalue myself with my last employer? I don't think so.
Beyond the prizes here, some designers will get recognition that they might not otherwise get; they get their work judged by estemmed peers in their profession. Mark and Alan may be veterns in design so getting the recognition may not be as important; I don't know.
One student's contest is another designer's paycheck. It's how you view the reward.
Some designers see more than the paycheck.
I'll try to put it simply:
If you think this content devalues your work, then don't do it.
Beerzie said:
Wow. How tough it must be to design with a stick in your rump. That must entail a great deal of standing.
It bears repeating.
Wow. How tough it must be to design with a stick in your rump. That must entail a great deal of standing.
+ Speaking for myself, I should clarify that having been laid off from an agency, I was unemployed for 2 years. Bitterness set in when I had to feed my family and others didn't feel the need to pay me right away, but would pay on the spot for almost every other service out there. Regardless, I probably would still enter this contest to keep my skills sharp and design in the spirit of competition. I'd love to see all the designs, veterans and students alike. Whoever is the hungriest might just win. This kind of discussion is great. The logo designs are bound to be just as diverse.
This sounds like alot of fun. I rarely have the time to work on such things, but in this case I think I'll give it a go.
As for this ongoing debate, my two cents would be:
1. A logo in and of itself really doesn't "generate" business. Any designer who tricks himself into thinking his logo is what's making the business prosper may have a very large head or at least a general missunderstanding of how a business works.
2. I would say on a website with the readership that this one enjoys, winning this contest would at least provide alot of positive publicity amongst your peers... so the value is certainly quite a bit more than $100.
Now I'm off to sketch up some ideas!
Will you be displaying all of the entires, or only the winner? I don't think I'm going to have time to do an entry, but I'd sure love to see everyone's work when the contest is over...
I will definately post the logos selected leading up to the winner. And if there is time, I'm hoping the judges will provide some commentary on their choices.
Are you serious? Ok, I know your site rules and you can ban who ever you want for saying BAD words. lol
All I can say is WTF about some of you clowns hating the contest? It's a contest! If you don't like the rules then go and start your own contest. Or better yet, get another gig to put you to work and use some of your negative engergy. Stop whinninig and making an issue out of some friends trying to help a friend out. Better yet, write a paper of your complaints and head to the next design conference to see how well you do in front of a few hundred of your peers.
Its like being a kid all over again. Slamming someone and the generosity becasue you have issues.
Man, I may not come here all the time. But this blog entry is going sideways from the real point. Not every contest is all about glamour and your opinion. Sometimes its just interesting.
So play along or walk away.
I don't have the cajones to go that route.
Mark: it's "cojones". "Cajones" actually means drawers, which I doubt was what you mean.
I'm not sure how long anyone else is planning on working on this thing, however I know that if I happen to win $100 worth of iPod for donating an hour to this cause, I will be pulling down quite a bit more than I do at the office. Now how's THAT for devauing my own work?
I'm not a member of any graphic design group like AIGA or GDC (for Canada), but I understand some of the dissenters concern for contests like these, especially since there ARE companies out there that don't understand the value of good design.
There are lots of instances where contests are obviously a ploy to exploit or take advantage of poor designers, but sometimes, it may just be a spirited and well-meaning competition for a great cause or company.
However, I realise -- and I hope more designers understand-- that there's no such thing as a black and white issue concerning this. A lot of common sense needs to be used here. My common sense tells me that this contest isn't going to contribute in the downfall of graphic design.
The downfall (and continual problems) of graphic design lies in the lack of business sense and practice of graphic designers. Too much complaining, not enough action.
just a quick note, i think everything is bold now after this post.
1. [b]This project calls for a logo for the business LedgerPaper, -- the bold tag here never got closed.
keep up the great work.
Hmmm ... I hate to stir the fire, but I think we all can see the problem folks are having with this.
If you've ever casually browsed Craigslist or some of the random freelancer-meet-employer sites, you've most likely guffawed at what people were asking for sites/logo/database work, etc. Now, of course, valuing your time, you ignored these people and went along your marry way. Just like some above have said, you "play along or walk away" or if you think those prices "devalues your work, then don't do it"
BUT, the real damage didn't come from the person who was asking the ridiculous price. It comes from the next employer looking to hire someone who first browsed to see what the "going price" was and then set his accordingly. After all, he doesn't want to offer too much. He doesn't want to waste his money, right?
That's called "devaluing the market". Wal-Mart does it, Best Buy does it, and now Airbag does it :)
As a designer, developer or just overall web professional, you've probably said to yourself, "When I have a business, I'll pay people what they're worth because I know the hard work that goes into this stuff and I don't ever want to try and take advantage."
Now, Greg, you're a web professional and I think the problem people are having is that you do know how much time/work goes into a logo. Most people charge several thousands of dollars for a well designed logo. You know that, I know that, we all know that. Greg, would you design a logo for $99? No. I understand that maybe an up-and-coming designer might (might) like the opportunity -- but, really, is he going to put "Won Airbag Contest" on his resume? Probably not. So he's not really making up in notoriety what he's losing in cash.
What if Microsoft or Boeing held contests to see who could create the best logo for $99? Then everyone else would too, and there would no longer be a viable market for logo creation. That's the problem people are having with this and that doesn't make them stupid or ridiculous -- they really do, in my mind, have an honest point.
WOW, all the ranting from so many people! Them all should be done by now with lots of designs. And it is not only an IPOD it is:
1. A brand spanking new Apple iPod Shuffle
2. Jewelboxes — Kings 20 Pack. Great for distributing your portfolio.
3. A coveted Airbag t-shirt of your choosing
4. And of course you'll be praised here on Airbag with a 'hyper-link' to your website, or email address (if you're a risk taker).
That is more thatn just 100$ bucks and traffic to your site. If you are a freelancer you know how important that is. A nice portafolio online could bring you revenue far beyond of what you could achieve if you did not participate anywhere.
my 2c
Most people charge several thousands of dollars for a well designed logo. You know that, I know that, we all know that.
I don't know anyone personally who has been able to charge thousands of dollar for just a logo, you must hang in some pretty big circles that you say most people do charge that much.
Greg, would you design a logo for $99? No.
Ah, thanks B. for making an ass out of you and me. Yes I would design a logo for $99. I've done it before and I'll likely do it again — hell I've done a lot of work for free that wasn't considered "pro-bono". Free, no charge. And I didn't do this for experience or because I wanted something to put in a portfolio. I did it because someone, usually a friend (as in this case) needed my kind of help. See not everyone has, as you say, thousands of dollars to spend on a logo, so does that mean this entire layer of business and/or organizations should go without? No.
I understand that maybe an up-and-coming designer might (might) like the opportunity -- but, really, is he going to put "Won Airbag Contest" on his resume? Probably not. So he's not really making up in notoriety what he's losing in cash.
I missed the part where I actually suggested this is something designers (both novice and journeyman) will list in their resume as an achievement. Where did you get this idea?
What if Microsoft or Boeing held contests to see who could create the best logo for $99? Then everyone else would too, and there would no longer be a viable market for logo creation.
I’m sure LedgerPaper is far, far away from being a Fortune 500 company, but I’m sure Mike appreciates your optimism. I think you're pretty stupid for suggesting large global corporations would consider doing something like this because they can't afford to bet their companies future on a contest. If you're going to make a point, at least keep it real.
With all this designer rage it's a wonder this industry exists at all. After reading through some of the comments made here it's a wonder anyone in their right mind would want to deal with a designer, let alone hire them for "thousands of dollars".
Alan, This sort of contest is great for a designer who does not have a widespread reputation to get their name out there. It has a certain amount of built in marketing, the potential value of which is hard to value.
If a designer already has no trouble finding clients and chargin $100+ per hour to do work, then probably have to desire to compete. Part of what makes a designer worth what they get paid is experience with translating a clients wishes into a hard design. If a designer is trying to break into the profession it would be hard for them to charge "market rate" without extensive experience and a decent portfolio. One does not jump out of the gates charging market rate.
I'm not going to go into a microeconomic digression, but suffice it to say that this contest is perfect for those who can't possibly get away with charging market rate, but still have the skills, need more experience, and don't have the cash to pay for a solid marketing campaign. I know I'm certainly going to try to find the time to do this.
After all, like Greg said, it is supposed to be fun. So cheer up!
Hmm, maybe if it was the 1GB iPod Shuffle people would be less grumpy. We just had a similar "fiasco" here in Canada: The government is holding a design contest for the 2010 Winter Olympics logo. The Society of Graphic Designers of Canada (http://gdc.net) is vocally opposed to it and says its members are prohibited (or at least strongly discouraged) from participating in "spec work" of this kind, for the very same reasons people have listed above.
Wow, I was trying to keep it reasonable Greg. I didn't feel like I was flaming or being a jerkoff, I was only trying to make a valid point that was in opposition to yours (didn't you see the :)?)
And fair enough, the "thousands of dollars" was an exaggeration for a single logo. Indenitities, however, cost money. A logo leads to identity. That's all I was trying to say.
With all the "Greg rage" around here it's a wonder the comments section exists at all. Why do you want people's feedback at all if it can only be in line with your own? And since when does several different people speaking out against something equal rage? Doesn't it just mean dissent? And if several are doing it, couldn't it possibly be valid?
You'll notice, Greg, I never used the words "stupid" or "ass" and never intented do make you or me seem like either. I know that I have a valid point (except for my dollar amount) and I know that I delivered it in a level headed, reasonable way.
I'll go ahead and politely unsubscribe from your RSS feed so as not to possibly anger you anymore with my obviously misguided "reader feedback". Oh, and Greg, don't forget to take your own advice every now and again -- "don't be an asshat".
Back to the brief; what's "SEC"?
You'll notice, Greg, I never used the words "stupid" or "ass" and never intented do make you or me seem like either. I know that I have a valid point (except for my dollar amount) and I know that I delivered it in a level headed, reasonable way.
I
If you feel that way then perhaps I took some of your comments the wrong way. My bad.
Back to the brief; what's "SEC"?
SEC stands for Securities and Exchange Commission.
I don't know anyone personally who has been able to charge thousands of dollar for just a logo
John Hicks, maybe?
Okay, I know I'm not bringing to the table any new information here, but at least in this thread it seems that everyone has missed what seems to me to be a major issue.
...pause for dramatic effect...
Licensure. (Oh God, I said it!) This certainly does not address all the reasons that everyone seems to have their undies in a bunch around here, but is DOES attempt to address the issue of inconsistent "market value" of graphic and web design work. Without taking the time to make a strong point I will simply cop-out and point out this. Architects: licensed. Accountants: licensed. Contactors, plumbers, massage therapists: licensed.
We, as a community, CONSTANTLY sit around over our powerbooks and our $5 coffee, griping about how any dingbat off the street can pirate a copy of photoshop and call themselves a designer. But it's our own damn fault!
In order to graduate from my particular program, I certainly had to undergo a fair amount of testing and portfolio review. However, what constituted enough knowledge and skill to graduate from one school may have little to do with the requirements of another school.
If you want to squelch your constant fear of being undercut and underappreciated, take the time you save by NEVER contributing to this brand of competition, and start up (or contribute to) a consortium developing professional standards in our industry. And at any rate, please stop raising a stink when someone who IS CONTRIBUTING to the design community wants to help out a buddy.
1.125¢
Marty Neumeier might back me up on this one:
Mike, you are correct in knowing a company's brand image is not solely based on it's logo-type, trademark, or centaur. It is in fact the suspended beliefs (feeling) that the client creates when the company's image (voice), service (employees), and products (conceptual or concrete) are in harmony and deliver quality. What you have seen before but not recognized is the ability for a company to mature its brand quickly. Very quickly. And establish itself as a major player in the market place. It IS possible for an unknown company to become a "big company" in, oh....lets say... it's first quarter.
Need proof designers exist that can do this?
Dana Arnett & VSA Partners in Chicago.
Need a start-up brand?
Cingular Wireless
The guys at VSA had to create and establish an identity system, voice, brand, logo, etc. for a cell phone provider that wanted to eat a slice of Sprint and AT&T's pie. It only took them three months to do it.
What is the first thing that pops in your mind when you hear Cingular? Probably not their 15 cell phone options, 10 price points, monthly specials, etc. I will bet an iPod Shuffle that you cannot think of Cingular and not imagine Jack. Jack is Cingular's little orange logo/spokesman (who I might add can only speak in gestures and text bubbles, a true visual communicator!).
Identity, marketing, Design, and advertising can make or break a company within ANY timeframe. Companies like Coca-Cola and Wal-Mart understand this and compensate the people that control these means very well. Chuck Fruit (chief branding officer) gets a pretty hefty wedge off Coca-Cola's multi-billion dollar (brand alone!) leverage.
I will say this contest is a good exposure opportunity for one (1) Design student IF they win. But, as a Design student myself who is trying to enter the work place this May, I have come to understand the inherent value in the work we do. We fuse the objective and the subjective. We can charge an object with any message, right or wrong. We lead without being commanding. These are mystical powers.
If LedgerPaper were non-for-profit, I'd be scribbling research notes in my sketchbook right now in order to get that iPod. But this contest serves as an important moral test for the value of the Design Community. "A small contest is a moral test, who is crazy enough to think like that?"
Designers, thats who.
Knowing value and Understanding value are two separate things.
I would do a logo for the equivalent compensation of all of these prizes.
It would go something like this: I have a client who has a start-up and needs a logo. Since he is a start-up, he obviously doesn't have the dough to hire Pentagram.
I agree to do the logo for the low low price, but I make it worth my time by setting up certain project rules. What I mean is he is not getting unlimited revisions and pages & pages of possible design directions. Maybe he gets (give or take) one sketch and one revision.
This way he gets a logo, and I don't spend much time with it.
I might do this because he has given me other work with other companies he owns that do bigger projects and if this start-up takes off there could be a bunch of new work for me there. Maybe I do it because it will be fairly high profile and so could also lead to a lot of new work for me. There are many other methods of compensation besides money.
You know what, that sounds an awful lot like this project doesn't it. ;D
And sure Pentagram can get thousands for an identity project, but they do a WHOLE LOT more than one logo comp. If anyone gets a thousand for a single logo design with no revisions, then they are a fantastic salesman and I need to be reading their book.
Here's the thing.
No matter how many times us designers shout about "devaluing our work" from the rooftops, someone will keep doing it. There's just no way around it. If you personally beleive your work is worth more than an iPod, then don't participate. But, there are undoubtedly folks out there who would really like to have that iPod, and you're just going to have to accept that. Someone will always do the job for less than you. Always.
So take your panties out of the bunch and get used to it.
btw - love the new home page title Greg hehe
I love the "Airbag -- Devaluing the Market" html title.
Greg, you kill me.
Design issues aside,
I am looking into my crystal ball and I see the first thing that changes in your company is....its name. When you audit LedgerPaper's identity a few years down the line you may find that you are losing potential clients because they mistook you as a paper company. No joke. It happens all the time.
A great business class airline company Midwest Express renamed themselves to Midwest Airlines because they discovered people thought they were a freight and cargo hauler. British Petroleum, Amaco, Philips 66 = BP
Federal Express = FedEx
United Parcel Service = UPS
Coca-Cola= Coke
etc. etc.
LedgerPaper may have difficulties coming accross to potential clients as an accounting services company.
Perhaps you can still incorporate ledgerpaper by coming up with a witty name combination or using actual ledger paper in promotional materials and chachkees.
Or I could be completely wrong.
I agree with Nameles--Ledgerpaper is a problematic name for this sort of venture. It exudes a sort of vaugely smug neo-dotcom attempt at referential wit that, frankly, I'm doubting most serious businesses in need of financial consultants are going to understand, much less appreciate and reward with business. Many of the people who will be involved in the decision to hire you will have never heard of, much less actually used, ledger paper. Consequently your clever name will only confuse them. People don't like to be confused, especially when it comes to accounting matters.
And alas, people who are confused tend to not hire the people who confuse them. Mike, I would urge you to reconsider the name.
Did the site just speak to me? So loud... I think my eardrums are broken.
Woah. The site is speaking. Trippy.
You trying to scare people, Storey?
If I remember well, the Bang and Olufsen logo was designed, as it is today, before WW one, by a 16 years old danish art student, probably for the amount of a week rent*. I'm pretty sure this fellow had a very comfortable career after this, and he obviously did not devaluate the market (this is too good).
Anyway, a contest like this is a matter of half a day of work, given the short amount of time given between the announcement and the deadline. I guess it's volontary from Greg, so we were not going to spend too much time on it. It's not like a three months deadline. My point is that for an afternoon of work, you get your money back, easy. Even for those who only consider the material aspect of the event, it's worth it. And you're having your work on Airbag even if you loose if I understood well !
Andrei at Design by Fire holds a coding contest, and I don't remember any negative comments there. And the work involved requires much more time (xhtml, css and js code of the whole site)...
* any precisions welcome.
Scared me. Sitting in a silent room at 2 in the morning with earphones in.
And it's changed into a woman.
Chris, stop doing FREE brand consulting !
Lol. The voice rocks.
Thibaut, you have the right perspective on this. Well done.
B. Adam, while Greg was a bit course he was certainly not an asshat. Also, you're basically deriding Greg for your own folly: attacking someone outside of your point of view. No where on this site has Greg ever mentioned that your comments have to be in line with his. You called him out when you asked if he'd do a design for $99. If you'll kindly take notice, he has not argued very much with others of your similar opinion. He presents us with the privilege to comment because he wants to hear other viewpoints, which are obviously not always going to be similar to his own.
As for this contest, while I'd certainly not do a logo for under $300-$500, I will participate in this contest due to the amount of exposure to be gained from Airbag, and the possibility that LedgerPaper could become not only a viable company, but a large one. Sure the guy who does a logo for a relative unknown that becomes huge — Microsoft's original logo, as I've heard, was had for $300 — normally gets screwed, however they also get as much work as they want after it.
As a person trying to start his own company, I appreciate this opportunity (though I'd rather have the $100 than the shuffle — I have a 2nd gen 20GB). It affords me the chance to get some cool stuff as well as mindshare among peers. And for the record, for the sake of getting my name out, I've been offering lots of free work (including content management systems) to local businesses that I like. We're even going to do some discount work for a promotional period since we've been having trouble getting clients here in Tampa.
Unless you've been there, hoping that you'll get a client just so you can leave your slave job at Target, don't ever f'ing complain. (British :)...sorry Greg, there's lots of emotion here) Devaluing the profession my ass. Keep this up Greg! The world needs more opportunities to help the little guy.
To all of you who have your tooties in a fruity, I have to wonder if maybe you're just really caring too much about the "wrong" things. Lighten up and maybe have a little fun and stop caring so much about everything BUT the design, BUT the art.
You sound like whiney old men who care more about the process than the product. Please, for the love of all things in this god-forsaken world, RELAX.
for those who think doing a logo for a competition is worth nothing, please take a look at the following article.
http://vibranium.com/p_nba_02.html
nite.
what Garrett Peek said.
The most telling part of the original post, I think, is the part others are overlooking: Normally this is where I launch Photoshop and do the work to the best of my ability, but I'm in the middle of a great many large tasks that do not leave me adequate time. This isn't a matter of farming out logo work to unknowns via the Internet in hopes of saving money. It's a favor. The swag is just that — swag. It's there to sweeten the deal, that's all.
i think the more important question would be... who makes logos in photoshop?
The nike logo was designed by a student for 50 bucks. But you cant sugarcoat it. Contests are a way to get free (or dirt cheap) design. I agree with B.Adam on that fact that it's a pretty unethical way to get work done.
I also though see the flipside as well. It is a good way to get something in print (ipod notwithstanding.)
But the inherent problem is that designers design for a reason. We need background. We need context. We need a vision. "No swooshes" is not much of a direction. There are so many variables that arent addressed in the few sentences of what he wants that it really isnt design at all. It's an art contest.
Design is certainly about aesthetics, but more importantly its about aesthetics within the context of acheiving effective communication.
If you truly want to take this out of the realm of an easy way to get work done for free, open it only to students, come up with a comprehensive RFP that addresses all of the things an actual project would need, take the best idea (rather than the best execution) and then work with the winning designer in a real world scenario. That way some student could get some hands-on experience in the process of design in the real world as well as getting something for their book. ..
And... the fact that the client agreed to accept whatever design is chosen by the panel of judges, all of which are designers, says a lot about the nature of this competition.
This isn't someone who had the genius idea of setting up a competition in order to get design work without paying for it.
He has turned over his identity to a community of designers, and has all but given them complete control to visually interpret his business. Sure he has a lot to gain, but this must be a fairly uncomfortable situation to put yourself in. A bit like a sheep amongst wolves (yes it's very silly to compare designers to something so fierce).
If it was a bunch of weasel-y product managers judging this affair I would be screaming bloody murder like the rest of you. But this is a design competition hosted, judged and really only known about by designers. Hardly the sort of affair that has the recognition to cause any devaluing of the profession.
Are Pepsi employee's worried about the devaluing Pepsi when they turn in their "Free 20oz Dew" cap?
Take yourselves less seriously, and realize that all arguments aside, this is a contest on a website that reaches very few people in the grand scheme of things. Nobody is devaluing anything. It's a logo, an iPod, and a whole lot of nonsense.
How many of you refused to make logos for your design classes, claiming that you were davaluing the design world that you so wished to join soon?
This really does look like another example of professional elitism. I'd like to see you be happy with entering the competition I have on my site - come up with the most creative accounts possible and win a desktop calculator...
It IS possible for an unknown company to become a "big company" in, oh....lets say... it's first quarter.
Yes, this happens, but it is an anomaly. According to the U.S. Commerce Dept. out of every 10 small businesses, 7 will survive their first year, 3 will still be going after 3 years, and only 2 will remain after 5 years. Many also move sideways for a long time.
By the way, name one company that is has been started up by an individual, who does *NOT* have venture funding, who does *NOT* get money from the public market place, and became a "big company" (Fortune 500) in the first quarter. I dare you.
Need a start-up brand? Cingular Wireless
Wow, you and I have different definition of "start-up". Cingular Wireless is not a start-up. Per their SEC filing, "We were formed in April 2000 by our members, SBC Communications Inc. (SBC) and BellSouth Corporation (BellSouth), as the operating company for their U.S. wireless communications joint venture."
LedgerPaper startup = very little cash
Cingular startup = SBC and BellSouth cash.
I have a nasty habit of validating and verifying information.
Knowing value and Understanding value are two separate things.
Yes, and this is why G.I. Joe says, "Knowing is half the battle." I also understand value, too. I've worked for a start-up that obviously didn't value building an accounting department that was properly staffed with experienced and degreed professionals. As a result I spent months fixing 2 years worth of financial data.
I have the same problems as designers in trying to sell the value of my services to potential clients.
You and I are, unfortunately, on the same sinking boat. The difference is that, while you are busy saying, "why doesn't the ocean understand that my life is valuable?", I'm looking for a lifejacket and hoping to swim to shore. (hey, it early in the morning and I haven't had coffee yet.)
No matter how many times us designers shout about "devaluing our work" from the rooftops, someone will keep doing it
Amen brother!
This is why I come in and fix things up for clients who have neglected their financial records for years. Herein lies the lesson: someone else's cheap and shoddy accounting translates into my overprice clean up work. Of course, this only happens after the client has made tons of money by keeping their startup costs low (i.e. costly accounting work and design work) and increasing sales.
When you audit LedgerPaper's identity a few years down the line you may find that you are losing potential clients because they mistook you as a paper company, LedgerPaper may have difficulties coming accross to potential clients as an accounting services company, and Mike, I would urge you to reconsider the name.
This I know. This is why there will always be a tag line "Financial Accounting Services" or "Financial Staffing".
Initially, the name for my consulting business was going to be "Michael Doan" or "Doan Consulting" (which I own the domain names for). However, this seemed dreadfully boring to me and it would also place me in a crowd of "Dewey, Cheatem & Howe, LLP", or "Last Name & Company".
I am not going to develop a CPA (certified public accountant) firm, so I have a little more leeway. Eventually, my company will be a temporary staffing company that specializes in high-end consultants. There are a few consulting firms that have broken out of the "lastname & company" mold: , formerly Andersen Consulting and , the nameless consulting arm of .
I agree with B.Adam on that fact that it's a pretty unethical way to get work done.
Although it was never my intent to get for free or cheap work or scam designers out of their livelihood, holding a contest is unethical? There are bigger ethical problems in the world, this is not one of them.
formerly Andersen Consulting and , the nameless consulting arm of .
Ooops.
Accenture, formerly Andersen Consulting and Bearing Point, the nameless consulting arm of KPMG.
WHO STOLE MY BIKE?
Eh..sorry. Wrong Site.
This isn't someone who had the genius idea of setting up a competition in order to get design work without paying for it.
Nat you're more right that you know.
I will say this one more time. The client (my friend Michael) had nothing to do with the idea of holding a contest. That was mine, all mine. My genius, evil plot is this: I thought it would be something fun to do here at Airbag. If this site did not exist you can bet your ass I wouldn't have bothered holding any sort of competition.
It was his idea to play along by providing some small token of appreciation to the winner. A very nice gesture as I was just going to scold the loosers and praise the winner. I kid, I kid!
I'm not impressed by the insecurity of these 'designers' who have kicked and screamed about this. Maybe if Michael really is a client, not just a friend. And maybe if this contest was for a company that really needs a good logo just to be competitive. And maybe if we had plotted to find a way to get something for nothing well then I might be more sympathetic to this moral high ground message some of you are touting.
But it's none of those things so take your rage and go protest someone who deserves it. Go bitch out executives of companies that have swindled designers out of money. Start a blacklist of companies that treat design as if it was a step below changing oil. Start a blog! Maybe you can have a contest to see who can rage the hardest against those who have channeled Satan himself to help find deviously new ways to seduce another designer to create for free.
So, go, have fun with that.
Contests are a way to get free (or dirt cheap) design. I agree with B.Adam on that fact that it's a pretty unethical way to get work done.
Sorry but I don't find this to be as black and white as some of you believe but if you're so convinced that this is true and that you have maintained the ethical high ground all of your life and that you have always been on the side of the angels then I've got a message for you: The Pope called, he wants his hat back.
If I may add my two cents, the value of a designer is not solely define through monetary gains. Designing a logo for $500 versus $100 only means one designer charges more for the job than the other. The real value of the designer is knowing why you're designing.
There are times I have created logos for $100 because the client cannot afford to spend a lot on both corporate identity and printing cost. Setting up a new business does need a large chunk of money. So you carefully plan your hours, your work to fit their budget. Why? Because they are your clients and you take care of them. Because if I don't help them, they will find someone else to do it at that price, and the result may not be at all beneficial for them - and you're indirectly responsible.
It's about principles, man. You value yourself through how much your work makes a difference, not how much you charge. You already should know how good you are.
I'm with Greg. When I first saw the entry, never did it occur to me that it was an evil scheme to save a buck or two. In fact, I found this contest rather interesting.
In terms of devaluing the market: what happened to market equilibrium, supply/demand and all that jazz? If clients don't see the value of a work, is it really worth it for the designer and client?
There are designers that charge a fee equal to a government-grade budget to the client, but that is because the client sees the value of the work and the fee is justified (i.e. The Commonwealth Bank of Australia's logo was i think somewhere around 6 million AUD). Like an auction, the item for bid is worth what people are willing to pay for.
pleh, disregard my comment. I think Fuzzy Logic described it better.
Somewhere before the 50th comment, someone asked if the client would do bookkeeping for $100.
The answer is no, because bookkeeping is an ongoing engagement (i.e. months, years).
If any of the designers here complaining about being "devalued" would like to set up a contest for an Excel invoice template for some snazzy prizes, I will be more than happy to put in a submission. : )
Imagine if all the time and energy spent writing comments to this blog entry had gone toward working on this guys logo. Everybodys time is sooooooo valuable.
fusionpixel, MUCH different.
i entered the Vancouver 2010 olympic emblem design competition too... but the rewards of pitching NBA/Hard Rock Cafe or the Olympics is far greater than doing a logo for some random on the internets.
er, where did fusionpixel's post go?
I've done lots of pro-bono work before and it rarely brings in anything but more clients looking for pro-bono work -- anyone who does this contest for anything other than the fun of it should probably think twice. Design *is* undervalued, but contests like this aren't the reason why. I'm a little confused by the attitude that a logo, even for a startup, can be well done in and hour or two. And who would consider a logo in GIF or JPEG: please, if it's got to be bitmapped, rather than vector, at least make it an uncompressed tiff.
Pardon me while I go remove the stick from my butt.
wow, a quick Google found where the ledger paper image was borrowed from ;)
I think a few of the commentators need a hug!
And who would consider a logo in GIF or JPEG: please, if it's got to be bitmapped, rather than vector, at least make it an uncompressed tiff.
I've encouraged Greg to address this issue.
Greg - I think this is a great idea, and in no way devalues someone's work or concept - but I think it might not give The Client as much as he could get and needs.
As mentioned above - though a little out of context, an Identity isn't just a logo. An Identity is the visual representation of the way a company or organization behaves - and so a lot of things need to be considered in developing an identity which is to last years.
A competition like this doesn't allow for a designer to talk with the Client to discover important details about the aspirations, direction or future goals of the new venture. Nor does it allow a designer to receive information about the personality, position or character of the company they're meant to be visually representing. These things help to inform a designer about the business and design something that is relevant, functional and hopefully memorable.
An identity system helps to create a stronger perception of what the intended brand is meant to be. Admittedly, small businesses don't need to have the extensive brand exploration that a larger one does - but a designer shouldn't just be limited to being a crafts person here, but someone who can help The Client consider ways to express their brand and position - thus help his new venture create the image he wants his prospective clients to see.
Otherwise you're going to receive a lot of logos that any company called LedgerPaper could use, but not specific to The Client's company.
So perhaps you could arrange for The Client to answer questions about his business, aspirations, personality and how he would like to be perceived - then this might help generate a better selection of relevant logos?
I created a free, 72 page, illustrated Designer's Guide to Brand Strategy, for those who might want to look at some of the things that could help you ask better questions. You can download it here:
DGBS-Free3.1
I'm merely trying to help make a better contest here - which already has the generous attention of some great people. So I look forward to seeing the result.
We, as a community, CONSTANTLY sit around over our powerbooks and our $5 coffee, griping about how any dingbat off the street can pirate a copy of photoshop and call themselves a designer. But it's our own damn fault!
Like this?
:-P
[NOTE: I'm not a designer, I did actually purchase my copy of photoshop, and this was done in illustrator.]
Any business student would know what a ledger paper is and any decent businessmen should know what a ledger book is. I've spent 5 years in school balancing accounts, so is LedgerPaper a good name? I should suppose so.
Do we need more information about the specifics from the client? Well, from the nature of and the name of the company; shouldn't it already provide a rather clear direction of where he's heading and the rest is up to the designer to interprete upon?
It's a great read, great to have competitions, great to get prizes, great to see the difference between art and information/communication design and it'll be fun to see how far my 5 min. sketch will go, that's 1200 $ / hour folks =)
I'm from Australia, and it's sad for me to see that the design industry in America has it's s**t together about as much as we do over here. I always thought of you guys being more mature some how. Who's up for another pointless graphic designer v information architect v commercial artist debate?? Ah well, back to the irony mines everybody.
I do high end branding for a living now, and have done for the past 15 years or so. I don't do free pitches (I really don't feel I need the practice, but some do), and I do charge thousands of (Australian) dollars for a brand, but I can guarantee you I earn every cent of that cash.
Initially I had a real problem with this contest, but hey, they aren't asking for a free logo. "you should just be grateful your work's seeing print, damn it!".
I'm certainly not taking on the project, because I don't really need any of the stuff, as lovely as it is. If you were going to buy an ipod shuffle anyway then great. It's also pretty obvious that this is being pitched to students, and having a "real" logo in your folio never hurts. In fact winning a competition adds a level of credence to it?
I'd agree with Damien's comments though, the brief is very loose, and without further information, it's going to be hard to get a differentiated mark with any kind of meaning or relevance. Another reason I won't be doing anything. shrug.
In the end you get what you pay for I guess.
I do think the practice of businesses going to students to get work done definately devalues the industry though. I've seen it here, I'm sure everyone has seen it there.
"Why should I use your firm when I can go to the college and get 50 options for a quarter of the price?"
"Well, yeah why should you?"
It really isn't the clients' faults that they can't see the difference between the solutions outside the price tag. It's not their thing.
When was the last time anyone saw a really positive news piece on design? It's usually belly aching over "the new logo that cost $100,000" (at least it is here) Anyone seen an article about a company whose sales trippled and saved them from bankruptcy after they redesigned their packaging? I wrote one, yet strangely, it never saw print. Why don't we all spend our time writing letters to the editor intead of trying to crawl up each other's ar**s and impress ourselves? Admitedly, I did the same thing when I was a student, long, long ago in the days of french curves and bromides.
I also agree that being a designer has a lot to do with principles, but we've all got to eat as well... If I tried to do my work at student rates I'd be selling my kidneys within a year. Luckily it hasn't come to that (after what I've put my kidneys through, I doubt I'd get the cash for a loaf of bread)
I hope that was pretty level headed. I haven't read every comment on this board, so sorry if I've doubled up. Good luck to the contestants.
And who would consider a logo in GIF or JPEG: please, if it's got to be bitmapped, rather than vector, at least make it an uncompressed tiff.
Any logo "output" should fit within the confines of a jpg/gif file easily. If it doesn't, it's probably too precise to be a logo.
I think submitting gif/jpg/tiff artwork is really for easy emailing and entry browsing. I'm sure if a particular artwork was chosen, Greg and Mike would ask the winner for the source. There are plenty of illustration applications on the market and I think it's common sense to be able to see all entries in standard formats.
Garrett Peek: right on
Gary S: right on
Greg: Let the people who want to "have fun", have fun, get a portfolio piece, experience, whatever. You're a good man for helping a friend see some diverse work. No matter how much b*tching goes on, SOMEONE will indeed undercut the going rate. It's an economy-driven society. If one's own economy is getting an iPod, so be it. I can't wait to see what develops graphically. In fact, once the winner is chosen, I'd like an update in a few months after the business is open for further customer feedback. THEN, we can all see the results of this experiment. We need to see this play itself out far beyond the iPod delivery.
If possible Mr. Client, keep us in the loop. Thanks.
Is this contest open to outside the US or Canada?
Kris, yep. In Greg's 10th comment from the top, he said international entries are welcome.
Can one still enter, even though they hated accounting, failing it miserably in their senior high school years, never ever having their DR and CR columns balancing out, and only did the subject to perve on the only non-male cleavage in the school?
In May I received my BFA with a concentration in graphic design. For a while I didn't think I would even FIND a job - let alone something marginally related to my field. I finally found a BS job in Metro-East St. Louis where the typical blue-collar client needs a snappy logo for his lawn mowing business, or construction company, or lumber yard...etc
Let me tell you a little something about being "devalued" - Every day I have to explain why we charge (*gasp*) $65 dollars an hour for design. These idiots who come in won't pay it.
Personally, I would slit someone's throat to get a chance to work at a firm where clients willingly pay an upwards of$25,000 for branding. The only downside to that would be that I would have to work with pretentious jerks who have forgotten what it is like to start out.
To make a long story short: I will gladly participate in this contest. I can't fill my 'folio with "Ed's Lawn and More" (true story) but I might be able to use this.
Contests like this presume we (designers) are paid for the logo, not the time, energy, intelligence, process, and education we bring to designing it. I'm not horribly offended (it's their choice), but I am let down. Largely because a designer is running it.
This was a chance to connect a good designer with a good client, but instead it became a one-person buffet guaranteed to waste a lot of good dishes. I hope this yields a productive and beneficial relationship between LedgerPaper and a designer, otherwise I'm not sure everyone will really get what they want in the end.
Regardless of contrasting viewpoints, good luck to everyone. I'm very interested to see the end result.
I think we are talking about two different things here. There is a big difference between a "logo," and an "identity".
A logo is what "Ed's Lawn and More" is willing to pay for, and the most a startup like LedgerPaper can afford.
An identity is what a company gets when they have gotten large enough to start really thinking about spending "real" time and money on marketing strategy.
A logo is a mark to put on a business that can be trademarked so people can have a means of which to recognize your company.
An identity is an all encompassing idea about what your companies place in the world is that includes things like logos.
The client here is getting a logo. A mark to put on his invoice and his letterhead. He is not getting a brand identity. Yes a brand identity is much more useful, but as a startup, he is not there yet.
Stephanie, you need to keep in mind that those "pretentious jerks" started their careers by doing paste up on 5x2 press ads for car dealerships, for below minimum wage, for 1-2 years.
Be happy that you have a job straight from school that is awarding you enough responsibility to be creative. Be patient.
BTW, the devaluing of the industry (by the industry) in past years is why you have to justify $65/hour. Do you want to be doing that for the rest of your hopefully long and happy career? Take the long view.
Spend some of your free time re-designing/naming Ed's Lawn and More for your folio and make a nice case study of it with a before and after. That would impress the hell out of me, it would certainly show passion and commitment.
A lot of you are making your argument based around the question, "Would you design a logo for $100."
The real issue is that this is a contest. The question should be "Would you set aside some of your valuable time to design a logo, which would raise the equity of a for-profit business, even if you were not guaranteed anything in return? Even if chances were that they might not even like your design and choose not to use it?"
Sure, this contest is a great opportunity for amateurs. And an amateur may win. Is this a good thing? What does that say about design as a profession? What does that say to other businesses and potential design buyers?
What your contest says about design is this:
If you love design, I figure that you'd want to protect it's value and champion the process involved.
And before you reply asking me to relax, please read this:
http://gdc.net/community/news.php?id=18&press=1&draw_column=3:1:2
More designers than you think agree: Contests are spec work in disguise.
It's JON Stewart.
Nope, sorry... This would be perfectly acceptable for a non-profit or community event but not this. I doubt you see this kind of request in any other business. Design is undervalued already, and I have to agree that "competitions" like this just make the whole situation worse.
I think we've all done cheap or pro bono work to help out friends or simply get "a foot in the door" and that's fine. I don't see any of these things being the case here.
To be honest, I believe that if the company in question was, say, Lycos and/or the people doing the contest where, say, Entrepreneur Magazine then it would be of value to participate purely for the attention this would gather. I'm not trying to undermine your credibility but getting traffic from sites like this one hardly ever turn into valuable leads.
Young designers should be aware that unless they value their skills highly nobody else will.
"I have a company that's being sued and I'd like to start a contest to find a lawyer to defend me. In order to win the contest, you need to write a defense brief that will..."
Um, you can say that this contest doesn't devalue design and talk about it as "just having fun." Well, sure, design can be fun but that's not why it's a "profession" and it's *exactly* why it's undervalued. If we're all willing do a logo design for fun and for free -- and, let's face it, a logo design is one of the most difficult design assignments there is -- then why would a client ever see the need to pay us for our expertise.
You can spin this how ever you want, and I'm sure that Greg had nothing but good intentions, but this is spec work and spec work is just plain bad. What other profession offers to do the work first (and in competition with others) and then, maybe, get paid (whether in recognition or money) in the end.
Anyone that wants to "play" in this contest, especially students, more power to you. Just remember that if you try to become a professional designer some day you're going to be bidding against people that are willing to give their work away: maybe then you'll see where some of these negative comments are coming from.
It's easy - if you find it somehow degrading your work, just ignore it. I like designing, it's fun, so I took a break off work and sat down to draw few samples just to relax and get out of the all day rush...
It's similar like the recent WestCiv CSS competition... The prize is not somehow big, more likely symbolical, however one is just pleased with it (actually I can't even get it, cause PayPal is not for all countries in the EU... and I don't mind).
Guys, design competitions don't devalue design, hack designers do. It's the people with no knowledge of or skill in design that go around hawking "design" services that devalues design. It's clipart and MS Word Art that devalues design.
Saying a design competition devalues design is like saying a writing competition devalues writing, or a music performace competition devalues performace.
It's just not true. As a conservatory-trained musician, I can tell you that competitions do not devalue my art, but some high school kid taking gigs for hardly any money does.
Oh you moaners, eat this and then reconsider the threat of such a contest for our profession. And try to keep calm.
I came here to read on this contest because it sounded interesting. What is more interesting is how some people are bitching about the devaluation of design. Sure, a lot of things devalue this profession...bad designers, logo mill websites...but guess what...put it all together and we get...COMPETITION. There are crap computer companies, crap architects, crap painters, crap furniture companies. You compete with this level of business every day. Oh, you mean design isn't peaches and cream? Yes, it's a business like all others....and there is good and bad, expensive and cheap. If you're worried about low level...you might want to pull yourself up a couple rungs. You'll sleep better. It's life. What's devaluing design right now, at this moment, are designers wasting their time bitching about this. How about this...if this rubs you the wrong way, ignore it and go work on tightening up a project you're working on, or learning something new so you can contribute to the design community...or even better, get another job, go outside and enjoy life, spend time with your family, read a book in the park, sh*t in the woods...something. Look, if you're successful in this business, you're hopefully getting paid or you're at the very least content with being employed as a creative, and sh*t...this sounds kind of fun...a break from the norm if nothing else. If you are getting paid, your client or employer sees the value in you and professional design and you are safe for now. If you're bitter, you probably get the shaft often so you should tighten up your game...take a biz class or something. Like everything, you get out of it what you put in.
Here's the deal. Like every other contest out there...somebody will enter, someone will win and be happy about it. LedgerPaper will get a logo out of this and it will most likely do the job for his industry and he will be happy. There will always be contests, and there will always be winners and losers. There will always be the bitter guy who thinks it's a sham...that he's getting the shaft because LedgerPaper should have hired him to design their logo. What we're doing here is playing politics and it's pretty sad. There is no evil intent here.
Students take note: Do this. It may be the logo that gets you a job.
On compensation: While it's possible that the winner of this contest might parlay his or her success into future freelance work or an enhanced reputation, that's more or less true of any freelance job and is not considered part of the "compensation" under normal circumstances. It's just part of business and does not constitute part of a fair exchange for the value of the work.
On contests: I actually think that contests like this, and spec work in general, are more of an effect than a cause of the "devaluation of design" or whatever you want to call it. It just seems like the kind of thing that happens in a society that doesn't place a high value on design or aesthetics, despite the fact that the individuals involved *do* care about design.
Students: Your portfolios will be better-served if you spend time making work that you find personally meaningful. The mere fact that your logo might be used in a business setting does not render it more valuable than a project that you create yourself and feel strongly about. It will tell potential employers more about how you think than will a logo designed from a poor spec sheet without enough time or information to do the project justice.
On the subject of devaluation, the main point that AIGA and other design organizations are stressing is compensation specifically relating to licensing.
The point they are making is that, when you do something like the Vancouver Olympic contest you must sign away all of your rights. I believe, including moral rights. Which means that regardless of how the logo is used, where it is used, or how often, you have no say and no compensation.
One comment reads:
"Sure the guy who does a logo for a relative unknown ... normally gets screwed, however they also get as much work as they want after it"
I don't see how they would "get as much work as they want after it". From other customers? From the company that sponsored the contest?
Should LedgerPaper become a multinational or even regional force, what is the licensing arrangement for the logo? Unlike the Vancouver logo contest, that is not discussed here.
Is it the designers right to charge a fee when LedgePaper grows beyond their existing geography? When they hire more than 10 staff? etc. These are the types of licensing questions that certainly need to be answered on both sides of the table and, again referencing the Vancouver Olympic contest, were answered by having the designer sign away their rights -- which is GDC, RGDs, and AIGA's issue.
I myself, would like to see this issue addressed for this contest; otherwise, both the designer and the client are in for a rude awakening if, say, the client is sued because their logo design is infringing on someone else, or the client wants to trademark the logo, etc.
In answer to the licensing question, I personally believe another "prize" should be a service agreement with the designer ensuring that they have the opportunity to bid on any future work - web site, business cards, etc.
It would be nice for the client to verify the value they hold for the design by showing that when they are prepared to pay for services, that the winning designer is tops on the list of people they will call. In this case, however, they should also have the right to refuse any of the designs. Or, at least, get to know the designer better than by their submission.
Anyway, I don't think it's a question of black and white at this point. This contest simply did not detail all of the business issues based around the logo.
Listen people, as a successful designer, I've learned that if you want to make an egg, you have to break a few omelets. I have no idea what that means, it just amuses me and I wanted to get your attention. I'm basically an idiot that stumbled into design with a degree in music and absolutely no formal training in art beyond a Chinese brush painting class I was forced to take at the age of 7 while my parents abandoned me one summer. What I created in that class was far more interesting than anything I've been paid anywhere from $0 up to "an obscene sum" to create.
So what am I really trying to say? I'm not totally sure since I'm getting paid to be working on something else right now, but I think the point is that in a creative field, you have no way to predict with total accuracy what avenues are going to yield results (both money AND/OR creative growth AND/OR a business lesson - you decide the unit of measure).
So, when an opportunity presents itself (such as this one), you have to decide for yourself what you can realistically expect and educate yourself on the liabilities. My company is not successful because I am a better designer than you. My company is successful because we evaluate every opportunity and have been fortunate that most of the jobs we've taken haven't put us on the streets. There have been occasions where a $500 job has turned into a $100,000 project. They are rare, but once in a while, it can happen.
And, I have pieces in my portfolio that I was grossly underpaid for that have been invaluable when presenting my work to potential clients. You can't quantify that and wrap it up in a neat set of guidelines no matter how hard you try.
I think Airbag says it best - don't be an asshat. That's the best advice in the world. I generally use ass-clown, but asshat has an equally accurate ring. This isn't an opportunity for everyone, but it is for someone, and I wish them good luck!
Mama mia,
I am somewhat puzzled by the ideas or disagreement about the contest. It is true that an identity is an important part of a company, it can be hard sometimes to convince companies to see the value in thousand of dollars for a logo, but I think it is too much to say that the success they achieve is very much linked to their identity. A brand or company can only survive if it has a good inner core meaning good services and good products, then customers will make the link between the logo and what the company stands for. To say that they will make tons of money off the back of the designer is quite far fetched. I see hundereds of bad logos out there but the companies are still succesful because of what they represent as a brand, the bad logo is part of that success and they somewhat manage to achieve that success with hard work and values. The good logo will make the link easier for customers to have a sense of attachment to the company, so let your ego down and think business (meaning time and result). If it will take way too much of your time, then your business sense will tell you that the risk is high. If you have time and you are willing to take the risk, do it and don't complain.
I think that if designers had more business sense, we would not be hearing about this ranting here. When I started, I was this student who would enter this kind of contest, most of my peers were thinking like many of you here "they are a big corporation and they won't pay us to do the work?!". I looked at those contests I won (and some I didn't) as portfolio pieces that gave me respect when I went out for freelance work. When I finished my studies I had a nice portfolio with work from a few big corporations but most importantly I had contacts in those companies, so it is not always a loss. Companies are willing to pay the thousand of dollars to designers for work, they will do it if they believe in you, just like you when you go to a store to buy an expensive printer or lattest computer (is it worth it? How can I make the most of it as an investment? ). Everybody wants to work with winners, if they believe you are good and promising, of course they will want to work with you just so they can say that their work was done by this designer who is now known (your image might help their brand too). One thing designers are good at is creating concepts, but the point they forget about is how to sell themselves and brand themselves. Those concepts you create are based on what the comanies stand for, for instance there are rules that apply to cetain field of business (corporate blue, types, color and so on). What makes you unique compared to other design firms or designers out there? You have to really understand your clients goals and advise them on what to do with your expertise, the CEO wants his ROI (return on investment).
I bring my personality in my business with my dress code and accent (I am from Europe), but I also look at how I can make people comfortable with working with my firm, and it is not always about dollars but building relations that last without selling yourself which is a big no no because it is not part of your personality. You have to see how unique you are and concentrate on your strong points. People are so business business that they forget about the human factor. Bring a mix of yourself and a mix of business, that will define you as a "brand"which in this case is your name or your agency, if you think you are worth this amount of money, stick to it and don't take the job. The human psyche works in strange ways, we tend to associate cost with quality, so if you are asking $4000 for a logo, the client might think that you are high but if they think you are worth it, the day they can afford your fees, they will call you right away. Most people aspire to buy services or products from companies or luxurious brands because it gives them validity, so seek to be that "luxurious" brand with quality work at a rate that defines your worth ( a rate that is only defined by you and not by what other companies charges..."they charge this so I should also charge that'). Trust me it works because clients will respect you and value your work much more.
This said, if you like the contest do it, if you think it is a shame, then don't do it. If you are unique, show it. If you are a struggling designer, then think about you as a person and how unique your concept is and you will then find your identity
(did that sound too start wars? ).
Anyway good luck to those of you who want to contribute to the logo contest and for the rest look at this as a good way to relax, since for once you can do what you want without fedback from the clients about changes or endless meetings. Work is good but how often do you get to play around like before when you were studying and were so dreamy about your successful future as a designer.
One more thing about building relation, some of you did not read that part"...And to get a great start he needs a good logo. Normally this is where I launch Photoshop and do the work to the best of my ability, but I'm in the middle of a great many large tasks that do not leave me adequate time..." Think business but you should aslo relax and help someone when you can, people do appreciate it.
"Bonne chance à tous".
Whoah, didn't the deadline used to be January 14?
Whoah, didn't the deadline used to be January 14?
No. Not to my recollection.
#15724
To back up my assertion:
Thibaut: "Anyway, a contest like this is a matter of half a day of work, given the short amount of time given between the announcement and the deadline. I guess it's vountary from Greg, so we were not going to spend too much time on it. It's not like a three months deadline."
A month is not a short amount of time. Gah, I swear it used to be January 14.
Thibaut? Greg?
I'm not a professional designer, but this is what I hear the main combatants to this contest saying:
"Do you know what you're doing? This guy is getting design work that I could have charged him hundreds of dollars for, for a meer $100. AND, I wouldn't have to compete for it."
-- or --
"This contest is devaluing design. It is a slap in the face to design. It says that anyone can design."
Those are ridiculous claims. Yes, anyone can "do" design. Anyone. It is both arrogant and insecure to think that only people who "trained" for years or people who design full-time should be able to publically design something. Anyone can design, just like anyone can sing. Not everyone can sing as good as everyone else, but everyone can sing.
I'm wondering if anyone would hold any opposition if the reward was a couple thousand dollars. I'm also wondering if anyone would object if the design is actually not going to be used professionally. If not, the remarks are really not valid at all.
I think people's biggest problem is not with contests. It is that with a contest, they have potentially lost out on a potential work. Contests step on the toes of people who are insecure. Furthermore, the contest allows the holder to get their work done for less than the market would charge.
You cannot just put design in some capsule only for people who make a living off from it to use. I may be wrong since I'm no professional though. :)
I thought too that I'd seen January... Greg ? Do we need more coffee ? Are you playing with us ?
Anyway, doesn't change the fact that this contest is good for sharing ideas, knowledge and discover talents.
And that you shouldn't spend too much time on this.
Take it as a blitz project : can you express your talent in a rush ?
Set your own brief.
Imagine the client yourself if you don't have enough informations : mine has got round fat plastic glasses, is tall and bold on top, and drives a white dirty Mitsubishi. Yak. He likes to give branded bic pens to his clients and THIS is the real purpose of the Contest. The beautiful orange Ledgerpaper pen.
We have one month to think of him twice a day for 1 minute before putting the logo down, that should be enough.
Mike, nothing personal here. Just fun.
Personally, I'd take designers much more seriously if they'd learn the difference between "its" and "it's" or between "there" and "their" or "your" and "you're" or even "company's" and "companies." Design, I expect, takes a certain meticulousness, and haphazard use of language--misusing words you should have learned in grade school--bespeaks a carelessness that must manifest itself in design as well.
That said, gee whiz, people! Go protest the local Kinko's. People are in there every day printing off fliers with Microsoft ClipArt and Comic Sans. They're paying their secretaries (avg. $15/hour) to "design" their pamphlets, for crying out loud! These people need to be educated!
Fernando: you've confused 'design' with 'drawing'. Anyone can draw. Design is a process that involves communication, research, development, problem solving, testing, implementation, etc.
Designers in recent years have tried to shed the title of graphic designer as everyone from desktop publishers to photoshop hobbyists use the same term. Communication designer more accuratley describes the role of someone who employs the design process to solve a communication problem.
For example, the hobbyist 'designer' will not consider things like: how will the logo reproduce in b&w, at different sizes, for signage, for web?; will I provide a style guide to the client for proper implementation of the logo in various applications?; do the colors or symbols I've use have any cultural meanings that might be negative?; are the colors I've used spot or process, and what are the costs involved in printing such a logo?; does my logo infringe on any existing copyrighted marks? etc.
Tony (the musician):
As a conservatory-trained musician, I can tell you that competitions do not devalue my art, but some high school kid taking gigs for hardly any money does.
How about whole lot of high shool kids (ie. amateurs), audtioning for the same low-paying gig? That would certainly devalue your art by an even greater margin. What kind of idea would that give music promoters about your art?
For those of you who do not design for a living, before stepping on the soapbox please take a moment an briefly educate yourself on issues facing designers today. The GDC, Commarts, and the AIGA are good places to start.
Fernando: you've confused 'design' with 'drawing'. Anyone can draw. Design is a process that involves communication, research, development, problem solving, testing, implementation, etc.
Designers in recent years have tried to shed the title of graphic designer as everyone from desktop publishers to photoshop hobbyists use the same term. Communication designer more accuratley describes the role of someone who employs the design process to solve a communication problem.
For example, the hobbyist 'designer' will not consider things like: how will the logo reproduce in b&w, at different sizes, for signage, for web?; will I provide a style guide to the client for proper implementation of the logo in various applications?; do the colors or symbols I've use have any cultural meanings that might be negative?; are the colors I've used spot or process, and what are the costs involved in printing such a logo?; does my logo infringe on any existing copyrighted marks? etc.
Tony (the musician):
As a conservatory-trained musician, I can tell you that competitions do not devalue my art, but some high school kid taking gigs for hardly any money does.
How about whole lot of high shool kids (ie. amateurs), audtioning for the same low-paying gig? That would certainly devalue your art by an even greater margin. What kind of idea would that give music promoters about your art?
For those of you who do not design for a living, before stepping on the soapbox please take a moment an briefly educate yourself on issues facing designers today. The GDC, Commarts, and the AIGA are good places to start.
Devalue, shmevalue. Give me a break. I charge anywhere from $1,000 to $7,000 for identity design, depending on the client, and I am not offended in the least by this contest.
In fact, if I were a client, I'd rather get logo submissions from 200 up-and-comers and only have to pay the winning submission as opposed to paying $1,000 to $50,000 (yes, some firms charge that much) for one firm to handle the entire process and have no guarantee of even liking the finished product.
That's not to say up-and-comers will always produce a better logo. They probably won't. But there's a good chance they'll produce something that is more than adequate, and certainly worth a lousy iPod Shuffle.
"In fact, if I were a client, I'd rather get logo submissions from 200 up-and-comers and only have to pay the winning submission as opposed to paying $1,000 to $50,000 (yes, some firms charge that much) for one firm to handle the entire process and have no guarantee of even liking the finished product."
Who charges 50 grand without having a massive amount of client revisions built into the process?!?!? If a client pays that much and doesn't have any say (the "guarantee" bit) on the final result they really have been ripped off. That or they didn't participate in the development process in any way.
These comments are devaluing my brain.
:)
This discussion happens every single time there's a design contest. While I don't take the hard line of the AIGA (I don't really go for dogma of any variety), I'm not likely to participate in any more contests after my experience last year. I entered two contests in 2004, one on iStockPhoto for the cover of Guy Kawasaki's latest book, the other for the new logo of the national Green Party. The two contests offered what I think are the two different types of value that might be worthwhile, but in the end, they both just made me feel sick.
The iStockPhoto contest offered two valuable things: a prize package that was worth about the same in cash value as what a fee for a book cover might be (a Canon Digital Rebel and a few other things), and exposure because of Guy Kawasaki's fame. However, there seemed to be some lack of consensus between iSP and GK about how the contest would go, and the process of judging wasn't what the entrants were promised. As a result, the selection process was much more limited, and the two finalists (IMHO) were pretty bland designs, though the winner was better than the loser.
I thought the iSP contest was actually a good idea, as it looked like GK had been saddled with terrible covers in the past, and it seemed like he was trying to show his publisher what a good cover might look like. Turns out that he probably liked his previous covers. Good thing his name is strong enough to sell books on his own, 'cause the covers aren't helping his cause any.
With the Green Party contest, the value was that it's a movement I deeply believe in, and if a good logo can draw a few people to see what the party is about, so much the better. There was no prize of